Welcome to The Mobilise Podcast, your go-to source for all things telecom. We’re here to provide insightful analysis of emerging trends, innovations, and industry insights to help you easily navigate the digital era.
In this episode, Hamish White, the Founder and CEO of Mobilise, and Ahmed Houssein, Head of Products and Operations, discuss the rise of eSIM technology in the fintech industry.
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Transcript
Hamish White: Well. Hello, everybody. My name’s Hamish White. Welcome to another episode of the Mobilise podcast. I’m founder and CEO of Mobilise, and today we have with us Ahmed Houssein, who is the Head of Products and Operations. And I’m super excited to be talking about eSIM in the fintech industry. Ahmed, thanks very much for joining.
Ahmed Houssein: Thank you very much for having me.
HW: You’re a busy man. So, I know that taking even this time out of your diary today is a big effort, so we appreciate it. Do you mind just giving a quick intro on yourself…
AH: Yeah sure.
HW: …and what you do for Mobilise?
AH: Absolutely. First of all, it’s absolute pleasure to be here, sitting with you talking about like eSIM in the fintech industry. Quick introduction about myself. I’ve been at Mobilise almost nine years now.
HW: Crazy.
AH: Yeah, like I’ve started an Operations Department and made all my way up to Head of Products and Operations, oversee all our product development, project delivery and our operations for our active projects as well. I’ve been there from day one when we started talking about eSIM at Mobilise, when it was just an idea and there was not much documentations or news about it.
So, there was a lot of hard work to understand what was going on, where is this technology going? And so on. To where we are now, which is I think it’s reaching a mature market now. There is obviously still a lot of opportunities and a lot of growth, but it’s in a much more mature place than it was few years ago when we first started.
HW: And you make a good point straight out of the gates there that when we started on the eSIM journey, there was still a lot of negative sentiment around the industry about the possibilities of eSIM, I guess we could say.
AH: Yeah.
HW: Technology had been released by the GSM back in 2016, I think, it was consumer eSIM, that is. And still, you know, 3, 4 years ago, whenever we really started, a lot of people were still questioning about whether eSIM was going to be a technology that would take off in the consumer eSIM space.
On the consumer space, I should say. But now 100%, particularly when you’ve got, you know, big players like Apple getting behind the technology, you know.
AH: Yeah. You know, like I just remember something I don’t think about this quite a lot. But when I was studying my master’s degree in Sweden, Uppsala, we had a case study with, I think it was Telenor, and the purpose of this case study was around the time when Apple first submitted the patent of the eSIM chip.
HW: Interesting.
AH: And that was announced. And for them, that was like direct competition. Apple is looking to cut out basically that telecoms from the B2C relationship.
HW: Wow. That is really cool actually.
AH: Yeah. And they’re like what do we do? Your task is like, what do we do as a telecom provider to stay competitive in the market? And we didn’t win, our group. But the winning group, their case was you build a bank and…
HW: No way.
AH: …you offer, yes, so like you offer more services than just traditional telecoms. And their proposal was to start a bank and you club that together with the telecom services.
HW: I hope those guys are billionaires now.
AH: Yeah. Well, I don’t know where they are.
HW: How long ago was this? And you have to show us your age now.
AH: That was last year.
HW: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was 21. Yeah.
AH: That was 2012.
HW: Yeah.
AH: So, 12 years ago.
HW: That’s pretty interesting, isn’t it? And I mean, well, there’s been banks that have moved into the telecoms industry via MVNOs in the past, up until now.
But it’s kind of, yeah, like 10, whatever, years later that now, you know, that case study has now started to really kind of show itself in the fintech industry.
AH: Yeah, exactly. We’re seeing the other way around where like, yes, it’s specifically more the new banks. And I know we’ll get into this in a minute, but… the… it’s yeah. Just now when I think about it, I’m like, wow. These guys were actually, because I’m not going to lie, at the time, like most of the other groups are like, this just doesn’t make any sense. What do you mean? Like it’s a telecom provider. What do they know about banks?
HW: Yeah, yeah, yeah, how is this going to work?
AH: This banking system. Yeah. But it’s crazy how things develop.
HW: Yeah, absolutely. So maybe, just if you wouldn’t mind, for anyone that may not know, although hopefully anyone watching this podcast does know, but could you just give us a maybe a very quick overview of what eSIM is as a technology?
AH: Yeah, sure. So, I know, like eSIM, a lot of people think what’s it’s like electronic, but it’s actually means embedded. ‘E’ stands for embedded.
HW: I think I’ve made tha mistake like a lot.
AH: Oh yeah, probably.
HW: Which is really bad to say.
AH: Yeah, it’s actually embedded. The whole concept is that the eSIM chip that you insert in the eSIM try is now embedded within the device, and it’s built in a way that you can receive the SIM information digitally. The good thing about this is that it works as a hard drive or like a memory where you can install multiple SIM profiles, you can erase them, you can install a new one, so you don’t have to always like remove a physical card or put a new one.
HW: Makes, absolutely hit the nail on the head.
And I think, you know, a nice segue into the next section is that eSIM over and above all of the things that you mentioned there and the benefits, it really enables new business models that you know, in some way, shape or form may have been present in the telecoms industry, but eSIM really lowers the barriers quite considerably for new entrants to come into the telecoms industry.
And, you know, we’ve been championing this concept of Embedded Connectivity into other industries for quite a long time now. Obviously, the technology to do that is eSIM but it’s the idea of enabling other brands and other digital platforms and products with the ability to sell mobile plans effectively. And as we’ve discussed, the topic of today is the fintech industry.
eSIM in the Fintech Industry
HW: And something that’s super exciting for me, I think is we’re only just really starting to scratch the surface of what this technology and embedded connectivity can actually, you know, connect, can actually, I guess, develop for the industry and in particular the fintechs. So, taking and what they call ancillary type products and services, embedding them into their existing digital landscapes and some of the main or the key customers or companies that we’ve seen that do recently, like Revolut, is a company that is really started to push into this and made quite big waves in the industry.
For me, what it does is it really grows the telecoms revenue pie beyond what it has been traditionally, which is quite siloed to some degree. You know, you’ve got the MNOs and the MVNOs that are offering traditional telecom services, perhaps some with some bundling players into fixed or other streaming services and stuff like that. But what eSIM is really enabled is really to broaden the addressable market for telecom services.
And fintech seems to be kind of the hot industry where this is really kind of kind of gaining pace at the moment. So, I wanted to touch a little bit on some of the examples that we’ve seen in the fintech industry for Embedded Connectivity.
Revolut Launches eSIM Services
HW: And, as we said, Revolut, which is providing a connectivity product in a couple of different ways.
One is consumers can buy directly from within the application. So, you can purchase like a 5GB plan, 1GB plan, 10GB plan. I think they also have a 365-day plan. If I’m not wrong, I think as well?
AH: Yeah, I think they have the global one as well.
HW: The global one. Yeah. That’s right.
AH: Global coverage and country-specific regions.
HW: Yeah. That’s right. Exactly. But then I think what’s interesting is that they also offer it as a loyalty or a perk in some of their higher subscription plans.
AH: The plans, yeah. Yeah.
HW: I think it’s…
AH: …Premium or…
HW: …yeah, Ultra. I mean I use it myself and I think I was on the ultra when I had that and 3GB a month. If you’re continuing to subscribe to the Ultra Plan amongst, you know, a bunch of other perks and benefits as well, like lounge access and those types of things, but really, really interesting. And I think the thing that is most appealing about this, if I look purely at numbers, is, you know, Revolut publicly announced numbers, I think somewhere around about 30, 35 million customers.
AH: Wow.
HW: And so, for any mobile operator or any mobile service provider, that’s a pretty appealing market…
AH: Yeah.
HW: …you know, to be able to push into. So, it’s exciting, I think.
AH: Absolutely.
HW: In terms of just Revolut itself, and it’s kind of set the benchmark a little bit. I think it’s probably the largest brand or the earliest and largest brand that I can think of that kind of push forward with this Embedded Connectivity product. So….
AH: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve actually used them. I was in Japan recently and wanted to try. I was waiting for an opportunity where I’m travelling to test mainly Revolut as an experience because I want to see.
HW: Yeah.
AH: Because here it’s like, you don’t, if I’m just in the office or at home, I like, okay, there’s a newcomer in the eSIM board and I just want to test them, I focus on a few things and I don’t get the full experience. So, this was like a real experience as a customer. And I was like, okay, this is a real use case. I’m going to test that. And it was great. But I also had to renew my plan because I tested, they had, like, basically a promotional bundle the first time. It’s like very discounted. I think it’s one either free or £1. I get 1GB and then after that, like the hook here, which is good. The experience of service, especially if you don’t have
HW: When was it that you tried this, was this in the last couple of months?
AH: Couple of months. Yeah, yeah. And the first experience was great. eSIM installing in-app perfect, bundle activated I can see my usage, all good. Then I ran out of that promotional bundle. So, I was like, okay, I’m hooked I want more.
HW: Yeah.
AH: I went on, bought more data.
HW: Which is the idea, to get. Yeah.
AH: I had problems, so it didn’t connect, didn’t activate. I wrote to support, they replied. But like I don’t know, by the time it got resolved, it resolved on its own. I didn’t have to do anything. They sorted it out on their side. But it took about 24 hours, and I was like, right, I see the challenge there. I don’t know what was happening in the back office, but I could see there is some maybe challenges that it’s when you think about it, this is banking services. And now they have to deal with telcos which is a completely more complex separate industry, back-office systems and whatnot.
HW: Yeah. You make a really good point there. And I think we’ve got a sub-topic further down the session to talk about some of the challenges that the fintechs might have. But I think you make a really good point in particular about the customer service that’s available in some of these eSIM services or offerings, I should say.
How Can eSIM Services from Neobanks Be Improved?
HW: And I had a problem with Revolut when I first used it as well. But I realised afterwards that I was trying to use it in a country that there wasn’t coverage. In Nigeria, basically.
AH: Did you have the global plan, then? Or was it the regional plan?
HW: I think global, yeah, it was the global plan. Yeah. And it was part of the Ultra subscription that I was on.
And I couldn’t easily find, and I would think of myself as relatively tech-savvy telecoms user, I couldn’t find easily where I could go to try and resolve the problems or speak to someone. Actually, there wasn’t any way to actually go ahead and speak to someone and yeah. And what occurred to me at the time is like, yeah, this is new.
This was literally within, I think, a few weeks after they had first launched it. And yeah, those ancillary services that the fintechs often sell, whether it be insurance or whether it be lounge access or certainly from my experience, aren’t necessarily very complex products. You know, lounge access is not necessarily a complex product or service to use as a user.
But there’s so many things that can go wrong in a telecom service, you know? And so I was kind of like, yeah, this is, you know, there’s going to be some learnings and some challenges here about, you know, the services and customer service that can be provided here. And I think the other thing to mention is, is that customer expectation is, you know, like they want it to work and they want it to work without hassle the way National Service would work.
AH: Exactly.
HW: But when you’re in, you know, a far-out country or using roaming providers or you’ve got, you know, these massive signalling networks that are all sitting underneath, things can go wrong, you know?
AH: Yeah, exactly. And I think like it’s also, as you said, there’s it’s a new service for them. And it’s not, it’s not as easy as, like, they just sell through your platform. And there’s not a lot of things that can possibly require aftersales services or customer services. So, I think there’s like a learning curve for them here.
Nubank
HW: So, another big story was Nubank in Brazil. So, they have started to offer I think within, its probably some time in the last 6 months or so, started to offer 10GB worth of data, which is a big amount for travellers to the US around Latin America and Europe. Really quite a hefty allowance amount. And I didn’t get time to go down into the detail of how you avail of that 10GB. But I imagine it’s something like Revolut, where if you subscribe to a certain amount, it’s a premium-type membership. But interestingly, Nubank have also recently been awarded a license in Brazil to become a national mobile service provider. And they’ve done that through…
AH: Interesting
HW: …the MVNO business model. And knowing from conversations with different players here is that there definitely does seem to be some kind of a path laid out for some of these fintechs in that start with travel and, you know, kind of exploit that market and get the learnings and then evolve into a national service as well. So, not only are you getting a travel-related connectivity service, but you’re also getting a national service.
AH: Yeah.
HW: And that’s obviously the play that Nubank have gone for. But you see that from some of the other players as well.
AH: Yeah, that’s very interesting. I think they’re also like expanding in other countries in Latin America. Are they already?
HW: Yeah.
AH: Yeah, yeah. And they already have like a good customer base in Brazil. So yeah, it’s going to be quite interesting to see how they develop. It’s like, yeah, it’s a bit tricky for us to like here in Europe to like, experience the services and see how they do it over there.
HW: I’ll tell you what’s interesting from some of the conversations that we’ve been involved in is, as I mentioned, the appetite of how far they’re willing to go into the telecoms domain, I guess, and these fintechs, that is all banks. And understandably, you know, there’s a hesitancy to kind of take on too much operational overhead because that involves like, you know, hiring and staff that know about telecoms equipment and even the telecoms industry in general. I think from what we’ve seen, this seems to be generally, or from what I’ve seen, I should say, there seems to be generally two camps. There’s the one camp that is literally just about sales and marketing, who are saying, we really don’t want to have anything to do with the telecoms side of things. We want you guys to manage everything. You know, that includes the technology, it includes the operations, the customer service, everything. And we just want to take a commission on top and monetise our customer base.
And the others where they’re happy to get a little bit further into the tech. You know, they don’t necessarily, I haven’t seen anyone that wants to get into the telecoms, actual telecoms side of things like, you know, roaming agreements and connectivity and all that kind of stuff. HLRs and HSSs and all that kind of stuff.
But they’re willing to get a little bit more into the digital layer, I guess you could say. So, you know, they’ll either have some of their own orchestration in the middle or maybe they’ll manage some of the subscription, the billing, you know, the payments-type components of it.
eSIM Implementation Challenges
HW: But it’s interesting to see, I think, for anyone in this space, in my opinion, the model is you’re going to have to come to market with an offering which covers everything, you know?
AH: Yes.
HW: So, you’re going to be offering customer support. You’re going to be offering operations. All of the telecoms, all the connectivity. And then if you, that way you’re going to catch most of the market as an opportunity. But you’ll pay back some of that based on the customer requirements you know.
Switching gears into another topic, which I know is very close to your heart, because you live and breathe this every day from a product perspective. But maybe you can give us a bit of an idea about some of the, challenges, pitfalls, problems that you’ve seen with eSIM implementations. And then, if you have any experiences of what you’ve seen within the fintech eSIM implementations as well.
AH: Yeah, that’s a very good point.
HW: You probably don’t have enough time.
AH: Yeah. Because I can keep talking for hours about this like yeah, it’s I think because we’re restricted to the OS, the operating system that’s enabling us to build applications on that same day, iOS and Android.
So, we’re very limited to what features they’re making available to developers, what APIs they can use, how they can interact with eSIM chip within the device and the operating system. And I have to say, like since we started, it’s been, what, 4 or 5 years now since we started working on eSIM. It hasn’t really developed.
It hasn’t progressed as much as I would have hoped. Like there’s been some limitations. And we were like, okay, it’s just a new service, give it a couple of releases and they will address them, but they haven’t. We did get some progress on a little bit of progress on iOS in terms of alternatives and implementing in-app eSIM installation and provisioning, but in terms of some more features would be very nice. Like that can basically empower the consumer to do things within the application rather than having to jump into the device settings, go into like very technical settings, enable toggles and disable toggles to basically just get that connection to work.
So, this is an area that I would like. I think that’s where I would like to see some development is the operating system providers, specifically with Apple or with an iOS and Android to equip developers with more features so they can start providing better consumer services and user experience, basically.
HW: Yeah, you make a really good point. I mean, when I was thinking about this topic, I was thinking about things like user experiences on and across a mobile application or, you know, the way that the product is, is developed and built, but you’ve probably hit on the biggest friction point, I guess I would say with eSIM and particularly with iOS.
And yeah, I mean, iOS has been, or Apple has been probably the biggest driver of eSIM over the course of the last 18 months. So, it’s hugely relevant in terms of the, you know, the user experience of eSIM and the adoption of eSIM eventually. And we I mean, we’re getting into some pretty sensitive ground here as well because obviously we’re, you know, we’re in partnership with Apple to some degree as well.
But I guess some of the restrictions that they’ve had over how eSIM can be used has been another point as well. So, requiring the entitlement process or the application and the entitlements process to be achieved for any service provider to be able to offer eSIM and the criteria for a service provider to have to meet to become, you know, to have the entitlements application approved is quite strict as well, right? Like,
AH: Yeah, yeah, it’s strict and very difficult to achieve a lot. Like we get a lot of clients or potential clients who are just like in general conversations with like the industry and we just see how everyone is finding it like very challenging, they don’t understand it. They’ve done the research they’re like we read this, but we don’t understand it, it’s not straightforward.
So yeah, like back to my point. Like you are you would have expected this to have got more simplified or like more features added, more flexibility to allow developers and product developers as well to like customise and differentiate between each other. Obviously, all in all, well, at the end of the day, it will just primarily benefit the end user, their user experience of the service. And I think that’s the biggest enabler that would help us achieve that.
HW: Yeah, just talking about kind of the regulatory environment and Apple, I’m not surprised that, you know, there’s some changes that have come down the line based on some of the kind of high profile court cases we’ve seen and stuff. But to Apple’s credit, the new changes that they’ve made with in-app provisioning, I’m not 100% familiar with the correct terminology, but it’s halfway in between in-app provisioning and QR codes.
I think it’s…
AH: A universal thing.
HW: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.
AH: Yeah, that’s what I was referring to earlier. Where like, they’re providing us with our developers like different ways of getting things done, but not necessarily new features. So yeah, just maybe this is like a workaround. So, we don’t need the same entitlement anymore. However, the user experience is not as good as with eSIM entitlements still.
HW: Yeah, yeah.
AH: But it’s definitely a good step in the right direction. But, yeah, still like there’s some limitations there but it’s in the right direction.
HW: Another topic is coming to my mind about payments for fintechs. And I guess it’s in-app payments, isn’t it?
AH: Yes.
HW: When you purchase a Revolut plan it’s in-app payments, isn’t it?
AH: Yes, exactly.
HW: That was that subject to that was one of them.
AH: Yeah. So that’s a good point. I’d be interested to see if this would be subject to commissions. I don’t think so because, you know, like the whole idea is like you can argue that you don’t need the app to use the services
HW: Yeah, using the service outside of the app.
AH: And that’s the same with Revolut, even bank card, because you don’t need the app to use your bank card with Revolut.
HW: Yeah, it’s murky to understand the boundaries of this sometimes that.
AH: Yeah, I mean, you need the app to transfer funds between accounts and use a lot of their services. Yeah. So, I don’t know how they do it. Like looking at their prices, I don’t think there is that commission. I said they probably managed to get away from like paying that commission.
HW: Yeah, yeah.
AH: But yeah like, yeah for normal like I know, like with eSIM and data roaming plans and the plans in general, like you don’t need to pay the commission. So that’s good news for us for now.
HW: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because also to remember in the roaming space there’s not massive margins going around, is there?
AH: Not anymore.
HW: Yeah exactly.
And changing gear a little bit but kind of related to the challenges that fintechs face deploying eSIM.
Choosing the Best eSIM Provider
HW: What are some of the recommendations that you would give to a fintech looking to choose an eSIM technology provider? And feel free to say just go with Mobilise.
AH: Yes.
HW: That’s the recommendation.
AH: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I touched this earlier, so I think simply they need to continue getting it right in the similar way that they did it with their digital banking. They need to continue doing the same with providing eSIM and data connectivity, which is convenience and competitive pricing. Good service and most importantly, good customer service – instant customer service. And for them to be able to provide all of this, they need the right tools and the right partnerships. Go digital first. Obviously, someone like has been in the industry and know what they’re doing. And…
HW: Yeah.
AH: Yeah, I as I said, go with Mobilise because we have years of experience there that whether it’s telecoms or software development, we bridge it together. And I think it’s going to be interesting to see what type of issues their customers are facing and whether they can identify this is because of the partnership they have, or is it actually normal issues that are sort of normal in this industry, telecoms industry. They just need to have access to the tools or understand how they can fix it.
HW: Now, really good points and I guess to build on what you mentioned there in terms of the recommendations that we would give to a fintech who was in the process of finding their eSIM technology provider is kind of. I could probably break them down into a few different, a few different areas.
But one is obviously your technology requirements and operating requirements need to match. So, does the technology meet what the requirements are that you have? And does the operating model make sense as well? So, is the provider giving you the operational support that you need? If for example, the first-line customer support is a requirement, are they providing that? They’re the more basic things. And, you know, kind of normal for any procurement process, I guess, is to make sure that it’s a fit for requirements.
But then I think some of the other things that we’ve found as well is, you know, like it might not be related just to fintech, I guess, but it’s got to be a good cultural fit between the businesses. You know, kind of, do the businesses think the same way? Do they have the long-term strategic objectives that are aligned?
AH: Absolutely.
HW: Is there a good fit between the teams? And, you know, people with experience can see quite quickly whether teams are going to have a good dynamic together. And those things, you know, they’re very hard to quantify, but super important to having a successful delivery of a project, you know? Like if the teams are on the same page and they’re talking the same language, problems get solved quicker. Timelines tend to be shorter. So, it’s things like cultural fit.
And I think, you know, also not to go too much into the details of this, but it does seem like there’s a few different categories of eSIM supplier in the market today. There’s resellers who are effectively reselling activity via eSIM.
AH: Yep.
HW: There’s the hardcore telecoms equipment vendors like your DP+ providers, and then there’s the software players in the middle who are offering the technology and the platforms to deliver eSIM. And some, like us, I think we probably go across most of that range. But we, I think from our experience in the industry previously with our HERO platform, we’re probably pretty well rooted in the last category, which is the software providers.
AH: Yeah.
HW: And I feel that there’s huge value in that marketplace there, because we’re seeing a wave at the moment of kind of, eSIM. But a lot of that is a lot of that wave is around like a travel, a use case, eSIM, you know, connectivity internationally. But the real long term journey for me with eSIM is what can you do with it?
Over and above, you know, just provisioning a SIM card, Embedded Connectivity is one. But you know, when you think about infotainment systems in cars, and it’s the software that sits around the eSIM, where I think is the long term play.
So, winding back to the recommendations, it would be, you know, when you look at the eSIM landscape as a fintech that maybe doesn’t have the depth of knowledge in the telecoms industry, you might find that there’s a bunch of companies that do eSIM, but there’s categories, you know, of eSIM providers and what they will actually deliver, so, important to make sure that the ones that you get into conversations with are the ones that are delivering to what your objective is, you know.
AH: Yes, absolutely. And I think it’s going to be also quite interesting to see how each of these type of players perform over this, because as from a consumer point of view, there’s going to be slightly different experience with each different type of player. Not necessarily in the service or quality, but like probably it’s always the aftersales services when needed. That’s when you will see the delta between these different providers or provider types. And it’s going to be interesting to see how this will progress and which one is the most successful. I think I have sort of like my own predictions that it would just be interesting to see how the other players out there now.
HW: Yeah, yeah, and it’s early days too, right? I mean like eSIM has been around as a standard it’s been around for a long time. We’ve been working on eSIM for you know, 3, 4 years, whatever it is.
AH: 5, 6 years.
HW: That’s ridiculous.
AH: Time flies, right?
HW: Yeah, time flies. But it’s obvious and we see that in the statistics of eSIM provisioning like downloads is that it is on a hockey stick now, it’s really, you know, exponential growth in terms of the eSIMs being used.
AH: Yeah.
HW: So, we’re the early stages of that. It’s going to be super interesting to see how it pans out.
We’re pretty much out of time. You want to you got something.
AH: No, no, no.
HW: That Pearl of wisdom about to drop.
AH: And it’s all good I just like I totally agree it’s a very exciting period to see like how connectivity is just not like standard telecoms anymore. A lot of new competition from fintechs specifically and other service providers in different industries. It’s exciting. It’s interesting. I like this evolution, but interesting to monitor.
HW: I think you’re I think that’s right. I mean, for the number of years that we’ve been in the telecoms industry and I, me kind of going on almost 25 years now, which is fun, I think.
AH: 2 and a half years now?
HW: Yeah, yeah, I’m just out of Uni yeah, yeah. I feel like this is the most transformative technology.
AH: Yes, absolutely.
HW: That we’ve seen in like two decades. And there’ll be a lot of people that will scoff at that, probably. And a lot of people will say, you know, maybe 2G to 3G was a massive moment. iPhone was a massive moment, which they all are. But I feel like in terms of the telecoms business model, this is a big shift that we need right now.
AH: Exactly. It’s in terms of business model and how the industry is shake out. It’s just being challenged and evolving at the same time. So, I think this is the most it’s been going through.
HW: And it’s good to be right at the at the coalface of it too. Yeah. It’s exciting hard work but exciting. We’re going to wrap it up there. Thank you so much for coming today.
AH: Thank you very much for having me.
HW: I mean for taking the time out of your day, really appreciate it. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you about this kind of stuff and again, appreciate you taking the time. Thanks to everyone who tunes in to the podcast. Don’t forget you can see us on our website, on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts, so tune in and our next episode will probably be coming out in the next couple of months or so, so tune in for that one as well.
Thanks, everyone. Cheers. Bye.
AH: Thank you. Bye.
